Monica Thakrar on the barriers women face moving into senior leadership, why claiming your achievements out loud is a practice, and how a cross-departmental perspective prepares you for the next level.

Transcript

Rachel Mandell (00:00)

today we are speaking with Monica Thakrar She is the founder of MTI, an organizational consulting and coaching company focused on leadership training, executive coaching, facilitation, and change management, consulting for government commercial and nonprofit clients. Her work focuses on developing and enhancing leaders and organizations performance and results. Welcome Monica, we're very happy to have you.

Monica Thakrar (00:25)

Thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you guys today.

Rachel Mandell (00:27)

Thank you. So my first question is, what's the biggest shift women experience when they are making that move from the middle of

know, middle management to leadership.

Monica Thakrar (00:38)

Yeah, it's a big shift, right? I middle management, we're kind of managing up and down and there's a lot of transition to go to a senior level position. So there's a lot of things to think about when you're moving from that middle management to senior level positions. And so I think some of the biggest shifts is really focusing now more on strategy and vision, really moving towards that bigger picture view of how to now focus and lead the team in a way, in a direction that feels right for you.

the leader. And that means you have to do a lot more focus on delegating and moving stuff off your plate, right? And so that means really developing the team even more than maybe you were doing as a mid-level manager.

Now there might be organizational structural changes that you might need to make where there's leaders of leaders underneath you instead of everybody reporting directly to you. So there might be some organizational structural things to think about of how to organize your teams better. There's definitely that shift of making sure that you're pushing everything more and more down. I see a lot of leaders who are still getting pulled into the day to day. And that's a lot of what we work on is either time management or figuring out things to develop their people or push

down to their people so that they have more time to think and strategize and vision. And that also means influencing and leading in a different way. And I think the last thing then is really focusing on those peer relationships because you're now gonna spend more time influencing and leading at the senior level places, not only leading your people, but now influencing up.

Rachel Mandell (02:08)

it reminds me of an article that we referenced a lot at my last company as, cause we were growing, we grew very quickly. So our roles changed very rapidly. And the article I think is called or definitely says, learn to share your Legos. And that's really about delegation, but especially coming from the startup where I was, where you go from a generalist to a specialist to a leader.

And it's actually something that's harder than most people would think, giving up some of the work that you're used to doing.

Monica Thakrar (02:39)

Yeah, it's really hard because you're really good at it. And that's often why you get, you know, promoted to the next levels. And so having to let that piece go and now get the work done through your people is a big transition.

Rachel Mandell (02:49)

So in terms of some practical advice for women who are wanting to make this move in the next six to 12 months, what would you recommend they start doing? What are some topics to or conversations to have with your manager to sort of facilitate this move or get the wheels rolling?

Monica Thakrar (02:57)

Yeah.

Well, first, let them know you're interested, right? I have a lot of women not even vocalizing that they want the next level and what they're looking for. So definitely open up and let your manager know, let people around you know. Secondly, ask for opportunities, ask for opportunities, even in the lead up to shadow your manager, go to meetings or bigger strategy meetings with them. I'm coaching a gentleman right now that they're thinking about that could possibly be the next CFO of a bank. And so we talk a

lot about, how does he get into the boardrooms? How does he get into the higher level position so that even he can see what are they talking about? What questions are they asking? He can prepare even if it's a longer timeframe than what you've described here. And he's like, I'm just surprised with the questions that they're asking. Right. And so it's letting him be a fly on the wall before he needs to be there.

And then the third one might be just volunteering to get into working groups or cross-organizational opportunities to start working around the system that might be different from what you're working in in your current role. So gives you more visibility, more networks, more opportunities to see what's going on in the organization.

Rachel Mandell (04:14)

I love that. think there's a lot to be said about exposure, even if it's not direct responsibility, understanding, like you're saying, what is important in the conversations in those rooms you haven't been in yet? And then also across the organization where you may have been focused or siloed in a very specific function when as you move up, perspective expands and

you have to sort of have a working knowledge of the bigger picture in terms of not just strategy, but also operation.

So we're talking about this knowing that there are barriers women face that are different from men. We see it in the headlines even recently we're educated, we're working, but we're still facing the same barriers that women have faced for decades in terms of actually getting that promotion, taking that step

I'm curious because you have so much exposure in conversations with women in this position, can you talk to us a little about the barriers you see that they face and what that looks like and how that affects them?

Monica Thakrar (05:16)

Yeah, I wanted to reference a book here because I saw her speak actually this author, her name is Sally Helgeson. She has written a book of called How Women Rise. And she says that there's 12 common barriers to have to that in place for women's advancement. And let me just, you know, tell you a few of them. You can reference the book for a little bit more but

One is reluctance to claim your achievements, right? We're not as vocal, perhaps, as our male counterparts on what we've done, what we've achieved. The second one is expecting others to spontaneously notice and reward those contributions without us talking about them. And as a result, we overvalue just our expertise, not actually the vocalizing of it. And that's the third one that she talks about. So a lot of it is we focus so much on the work.

We're not out there telling people and promoting ourselves and being out in the mix. Some other things that Sally says is that we're building relationships, but we're not necessarily leveraging them. And so this goes back to the networks and how do we leverage those relationships?

And the next one she also says is we're failing to enlist those allies. So think those are a lot of the things. We're not being as vocal. We're not leaning into not just the networks that we've built because we're so good at relationships, but asking for the help from the networks. What do we specifically need from them?

So those are some of the ones I'd focus on. The next groups are kind of like our own internal as women, we try to be perfectionists, we try to be people pleasers, we kind of minimize what we do. So I think the biggest lessons I think on the internal side for women is really just showing and vocalizing who we are and claiming what we're looking for and what we've done.

Rachel Mandell (06:51)

I really fall into those first two where I am like, shouldn't you just notice the work that I'm doing? And I wonder what you say to people who are uncomfortable, not just doing the work, doing it well, but also telling people about it. It taps a little bit into the internal politics, which is also a realm that I personally

I was never really comfortable with, but it becomes a necessary skill to develop.

Monica Thakrar (07:23)

Yeah, I used to joke and I think I still joke with lot of my managers because I think politics and like, and networking are dirty words, right? They're like negative connotations. And yet, it's kind of the thing that allows us to move up in the organization. I think two major things are politics. And I always say politics is really

knowing what the game is and learning how to play it, because each organization's their politics that are going to be slightly nuanced. And yet it's such an integral part. Like politics is really just how is the organization functioning and how are the people maneuvering together? And we just have to be curious. We have to be curious on how that organization's working so that we can play it better. Play it and not in a negative way, but advance in ways that are going to help support that system to grow and develop. So I think if we can remember that we have so much to offer and so much to contribute, how do we let people

know that we have those skills and things to let them know that we can contribute even more. it's a practice. It could just be practicing first with your peers and your colleagues and letting them know, and then maybe promoting in your performance reviews, starting to let your manager know the things that you're doing so that you get more comfortable doing it. Because some of it is just going to be through the muscle memory of doing it that we're going to start getting better.

Rachel Mandell (08:34)

And the other thing you mentioned was relationships. And this, this

certainly was real in my experience where I think I neglected to a certain extent, developing relationships in a way that I would have, ⁓ be able to create a quorum for myself because it was, it just isn't second nature. It wasn't second nature.

I was very, very comfortable building relationships, very highly functional working relationships. But when it came to my role, being involved at the higher levels,

I didn't have the buy-in, even though I had the relationships. So I'm curious how you coach people around crossing the leverage barrier and how, what specifically do you say to do that?

Monica Thakrar (09:18)

Yeah. It's really getting to know them and getting to understand where they're coming from. So I often say it might not be in the larger groups that you're doing the networking. might be through the one-on-ones. We might be networking in groups, but we need to build those one-on-ones so we start really understanding. They understand us, but we start understanding them. We start understanding what's important to them so that we can also offer things that are going to.

add value to them and that's going to help them want to help you as well. Does that make sense? It's like it's a giver's gain as much as we can give to others as we're going to be able to ask for and receive on the back end of that. it ties to you know this idea of influence is that the more that we can you know influence others through building those one-on-one relationships the more that we can then have leverage to then ask them for something as well.

So it's a giver's game. think the more that we can lean in and give when we don't need anything yet, the more later we're going to be able to receive because we've been able to give so much in the past. And so when we are middle managers, when we are junior level people, how do we be proactive? How do we support our leaders? How do we know what's important to them so that we are

you know, becoming invaluable to what they're trying to do and how they want to maneuver. And how do we, I want to emphasize this, especially for middle managers, build those peer relationships. Because eventually those peers in you are going to be the senior leaders and you guys are the ones that are going to be influencing the whole system if you get to leadership levels. And so that peer level at the middle.

is so critical in building those relationships, only, leveraging, helping them get their voices heard in meetings, asking them to have you get your voices heard or whatever support you need. The peers can be invaluable in helping to get that leverage as well.

Rachel Mandell (10:59)

I think that's great advice. And it's a little less intimidating as a place to start too the people who are your equals are on the same level are easier to develop relationships with test out, that idea of leverage, really helping each other, and then, you can use that skill in other places. Because like you said, it is it does take practice. I mean, it certainly did for me.

Monica Thakrar (11:22)

Yeah.

It does take practice. They're not intuitive skills always, right? So these are things to think about. And as you're going, I would say, find mentors and find sponsors. And I think this is a really critical point for everybody, mid managers, men and women. But for women, right, we're not always finding those at senior levels. There aren't necessarily always the women there to do that. So how do we even find, doesn't have to be other women to be our mentors. We can find male mentors and sponsors. The ideas as we

somebody that is championing for us that leverage we can also ask them to get us leverage with other people in the system or the organization.

Rachel Mandell (11:59)

there's a question that is in the back of my mind that may have come across your desk, so to speak, which is I'm doing these things and I'm not cracking through. What advice or like, how do you...

sort of evaluate that circumstance for someone where it's not working.

Monica Thakrar (12:17)

It's hard. mean, I sometimes there are structural things going on in systems, right? And so I've had a, remember she was a woman of color and she was doing a lot of these things and the system itself was not a place that was, you know, opening up work doors were opening up for her for quite a long time. And, and we talked a lot about this, right? There are, there are, can be biases. can be structural things there, you know, so often systems are led by men where people naturally

think and assume the male way of operating is the norm for senior leaders. And so I want to validate that all of these things are there and can be there. This woman was patient and she started then finding the right mentors and sponsors. And as you're moving up, it's harder and harder to find opportunities that are the right fit because there's just less of them. So some of it's patience, some of it's then continuing to build those relationships.

And some of it is expanding our skillset. It's around business acumen. This is a third, another concept I'd like to introduce this like to your point, like we have to learn the operations. We have to learn how the, how it's operating at higher and higher levels. So we start getting again, that perspective of where are there opportunities? Where can I find a place to continue to move up if it's not happening in this particular place? And so that might be a different role within the organization that might be starting to expand your network even externally.

to figure out if there's other systems that allow for you to use your skill sets in the best way.

Rachel Mandell (13:47)

I know you speak to a lot of people who have crossed the threshold, who are actually in leadership. Can you talk to us about a couple of the common trends that you hear that arise for early stage leaders?

Monica Thakrar (13:50)

Yeah.

You know, it's a whole nother level, right? There have a season I've had folks in the federal space who are senior executive levels, who are now, you know, the senior, the top civilian level, people in the in the systems. For them, it's much more they're navigating the politics, right? how do they continue to get budget and, and protect their people and get visibility for their their teams? How do they make sure they're

finding spaces to influence the whole system and the organization. So it's similar level of skills. It's just it's higher stakes almost because now they're in the room and they're at the table and they have to use their voice and they have to claim those things that I was saying get in the way for women. Now they have to be those things. have to be able to say my team is doing all of this amazing work and we still need budget and resources for our people or they need to be able to have the back channel one on one conversations to

influence people so that when they come in the room those people that are on their side that are going to say yes to things that they might be saying that they want to accomplish. They're still going to have to manage up there still might be the administrator or the CEO of the organization that they still have to

understand what their needs are and be able to work with them, even if they don't always 100 % agree with everything, right? So in some ways it gets, it's different, it's hard in a different way. But what opens up too is you're now mentoring and role modeling.

what senior leadership looks like for the next generation. And that's real opportunities for people and women to show that they're capable and what's possible. And there's some amazing leaders I've been able to work with that are doing great things.

Rachel Mandell (15:37)

I want to go back to a point you made because I think it's a really important, important one because it is a big change. You said that we were talking about this view of the more holistic organization wherever you are is something that comes into focus as you progress and move up. it, and that in and of itself is, I think a significant point to lean into because

No one ever really talks about it, but it becomes expected that your knowledge expands in certain ways. I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about how that works and how people can approach gaining that perspective, becoming accustomed to speaking from that perspective.

Monica Thakrar (16:25)

a couple of ways. One would be, you know, reading, learning, right? There's so many podcasts like we're doing or Ted talks or, you know, books, things to listen to podcasts, ways to learn, right? About different parts of an organization or different things. There's examples of leaders who just, they're running in the morning on their treadmill, but they're listening to

all sorts of podcasts that they're learning about different industries, different businesses, different ways of operating. So that's, that's one way is learning, reading, that kind of stuff. A second way is just even in your system, starting to meet people from different parts of the organization. So if you're in, no, I was in change management, there was business process people, there was the IT people, and then there's all, or all organizations are going to have finance and HR. How do you start building

relationships or start, start just to go tap somebody for a coffee. Can you tell me more about HR and what you're doing every day or more about finance and what's your role? The idea is eventually you want to have a go-to person in each parts, parts of those organizations so that you don't need to know all of the stuff in their, their part of the organization. You need to know it enough to be dangerous. And that means you know enough to know who to tap so that you can get the information that you need or bring them into a meeting to help explain something or learn what you need to learn to keep advancing.

And so I think having that go-to person is really valuable to do that. And so that's a way to start again, lifting your gaze, because we can get so in the government space, we often hear about silos. People are looking just in there, they're part of the system, but how do we look up and out? Because you want to understand that your organization is a system. It's not just running because you're a part of the system is there, but they need to operate.

holistically for all the parts need to be working for the whole system to working effectively.

Rachel Mandell (18:15)

I think having a point of contact in every department is a really great advice for folks who are looking to make moves up. So we're talking about moving up and you're doing your job and you're also doing a little bit more work to get on the right trajectory. And this, I, you we speak to a lot of women who are like, I just got burnt out. I'm just, you know, I, in addition to what I do at work, I have

full-time job at home as a caregiver for children or for parents. And so can you talk to us a little bit about the risks of burnout for middle managers?

Monica Thakrar (18:52)

Yeah, it's real. I have a young child, I'm doing caregiving, I have a business. So I know I talked to a lot of leaders who are trying to do, who are doing the same thing. And so I think a lot of it is starting to think about how do we build in some self care? How do we build in some places where we are getting help and support?

How do we find opportunities to take the leave that we are given? Some people are not even taking their full leave. I worked for one company that brought us in and we were teaching about healthy leaders in order to have a healthy organization and it was a healthcare company. And we were teaching about, take your vacations, don't answer all the calls when you're on vacation.

and the one leader just stopped and she's like, they're teaching us all this stuff, but this is not how we're operating in our system, right? We're a healthcare organization. We are doing all of these things. And so it's really important for the leaders to walk the walk of what they want for themselves so that their people can also see that that's possible for them. And so take the vacation, know, get the support in the organization where your team knows how to do some of the things without you,

You need to have that succession planning in place. You need to have that cross training in place. You need to develop your people enough so that if you're out or can't take something that your people are at the place where they can take on some of those roles. Self-care, know, just building in times on your calendar. I work with a lot of leaders where it's just even building calendaring, right? We're just building in blocks of a half hour or hour, either a day or a week or whatever we can find, you know, to start.

to start building up that time where they can just think, right? Especially as mid managers moving into senior leadership, sometimes you just need the time to think because you're eventually gonna be starting to create strategies and visions. And it's like, you need that space to be thoughtful about it. And so I think those are some of the places to start. It can be even just small breathing practices.

or mindfulness practices. also do a lot around mindfulness and resilience to how do we build in even just a few minutes of time. So I think start small, but then really be conscious. Leaders have to really be conscious to build that in for themselves because the overdrive is real and especially in mid-management into leadership is real. And there has to be a place to take care of yourselves because you're now modeling this now for people below you as well.

Rachel Mandell (21:17)

The same adage about putting the mask on first on the plane for parents, think was works also for leaders. There's the, you know, performance coaching is a real thing because you do take on more responsibility. You do become more taxed. You do have to say no more often and, really prioritize. I, so I, I always appreciate the emphasis on these things because

for so long where at least I think like in middle management, you're head down, you're working, you're proving yourself. But when you do become a leader, like you said, you are expected to provide some vision and that does require time to think. And that combination is something that you kind of have to build out for your individual self. It's kind of like everyone needs something a little different, but just acknowledging that it is important.

like any other kind of high performer, you know, I think about athletes and things like that, business high performers are no different in that there needs to be taking care of all systems, not just the execution system.

Monica Thakrar (22:25)

Yeah, there's a lot of research we use in some of my leadership classes with corporate athlete. And so they're really the research behind that article. it's the HBR article is that they looked at tennis players.

And they were seeing what the best tennis players were doing compared to the ones that even though they had the skill and capacity, they weren't always winning. And what they had was like a, they had a ritual that allowed them to rest a little bit. So if you see the best tennis players, it might just be, you know, taking a beat or, you know, hitting the balls a few times before they serve, but allowed their heart rate to come down.

And so even for corporate athletes, we call them the ones that are going hard, like you're describing, we need a reset ritual almost to start bringing that calming energy back down to our system.

Rachel Mandell (23:09)

and I think I could come up with a thousand reasons why I wouldn't have time to do any of those things. And it's just so important to hear that other people who are high performers need to do it so that you don't get stuck in that burnout cycle.

Monica Thakrar (23:18)

Yes. So whether it's a workout, whether it's a quick breathing, whether it's first thing in the morning before any of the kids are up, you know, I do mine first thing in the morning, six o'clock where I'm breathing, meditating, working out before my daughter's up. And it's hard. It's hard to set those rituals in. But now it's like those are times I cannot miss. I just cannot miss. Yeah.

Rachel Mandell (23:39)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just, I know I'll feel better the next day. That's always my motivation. I don't want to do it now, but I'm going to feel great tomorrow.

Monica Thakrar (23:44)

That's how it works. And that's why I say it can be little things, right? We don't have to start so big, but as we build those rituals, they'll start snowballing.

Rachel Mandell (23:57)

Yes, 100%. Well, Monica, thank you so much for your time and your insights. This was awesome. Where can people find you?

Monica Thakrar (24:03)

Wonderful. It's been a pleasure. Yes, they can find me on my website, www.MonicaThakrar.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, and those are the two best places

Rachel Mandell (24:15)

Excellent. thank you so much.

Monica Thakrar (24:15)

Thank you.