Tara Turk-Haynes pulls back the curtain on the hiring process and addresses common misconceptions about what goes on behind the scenes. Get her tips on interviewing, resume writing, and adding skills to your repertoire to stay competitive in a saturated market.

Transcript

Rachel Mandell (00:00)

Today we are thrilled to welcome Tara Turk Haines Tara is a people and talent acquisition executive with more than 15 years of experience building and scaling people functions across technology, media, e-commerce and multi-brand organizations.

Most recently, she led global people and culture strategy at Leaf Group, supporting more than 400 employees. After seven years there, she transitioned into consulting, partnering with organizations to strengthen hiring strategies, build effective people operations, and create more equitable talent practices. Welcome again.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (00:31)

Thank you, thanks for having me.

Rachel Mandell (00:33)

I'm super excited to dive right in because so many of the women we talked to are going through a transition and we have this familiar experience of the black box of applying but not knowing what's on the other side and how it actually works. And I know you have insight on that front.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (00:46)

I'm very passionate about bridging the gap between what happens in the job seeker community and what happens in the recruiting community. I feel like it's a very large gap. also I just I do like YouTube videos on trying to help people and coach them through this for free just because it can be daunting. talk like recruiting people talk about this every single day and it's shop for us and we forget that we are leaving some people.

behind and so I'm just really passionate about connecting the two communities. So thank you for having me.

Rachel Mandell (01:24)

Yes, our pleasure. So my first question is, what are some of the biggest misconceptions candidates have about how hiring decisions are actually made?

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (01:35)

There's, there are a couple and it's a great question. The one thing that I see all the time, obviously, is the misconception of what an applicant tracking system is. I think in the job seeker community, I see a lot of people assuming that there's a big AI monster making decisions about their candidacy. And we have had applicant tracking systems since I've been in recruiting.

It's just that they've evolved just like any other technology where you can start to get a bit more efficient, but at the end of the day, it's still a repository for your resume to be saved, to attach to that job, to possibly attach to a future job. It is essentially your record of applying with that company. And then if you go through interview cycles, they're able to keep any interview.

information that you've had if you don't get that job, it still lives in that system. It's just a big old filing cabinet essentially that allows us to access your records with us. Are there some AI pieces of that process for sure? And companies can decide how they're going to use that, right? Like some...

companies are gonna say, yes, I will use what the score that an AI score that the system can give certain resumes. I know a lot of recruiters who don't like that, because they don't know how that was treated, how it was calibrated, what the LLM system was that kind of allowed you to get to that score. So they don't trust it or they'll audit it, right? But at the end of the day, you still have a human being who is dealing with your candidacy.

in either direction. And in this daunting market, it's really hard because people seem to think there's like an auto reject. It's just, there's a lot of people, a lot of people applying and who are very qualified for a smaller number of jobs. And so it really is much more difficult. And sometimes it's easy to blame technology. The second thing that I will say also is that recruiters work in collaboration with hiring teams.

If you talk to a recruiter and they don't get back to you in like a couple of days, it could be that they are still trying to calibrate with the hiring manager and talk to them about your candidacy. It does not mean that they've actually kind of ghosted you or whatever. So it will take time depending on how that organization's or recruiting process works. So just give recruiters some grace because they are going through a lot. They've got phantom candidates, they've got

you know, almost triple the amount of candidates that they normally have in a regular job market. And then, and some of them are working with smaller teams themselves, right? And then the last thing I'll say is what is ghosting. Ghosting for me, I think I hear a lot of job seekers who are saying they're using it and I want to just put some context in different stages of your applicant journey.

If you apply and you get a confirmation that you've applied, historically they would say, we've seen your resume, so excited, thank you for applying, we'll get back to you after we've reviewed it. Now, because there's such an influx, they're saying, we'll get back to you if there's a match, right? So at least you've gotten that information. Ghosting is not that. Ghosting is not when you don't hear back after you've applied.

Ghosting usually happens after you've actually maybe talked to someone. So if you've talked to a recruiter, you've interviewed and they never got back to you, that's ghosting. It happens on the candidate side as well. Some candidates don't show up for job interviews, remarkably, but still happens in this environment. And I could speak more about that later. If you've gone through a panel and talked to a bunch of people and you still don't get any feedback back, that is ghosting for sure.

So, you know, there's different levels to like how we approach and think about the humanity in recruiting on both sides. And I think it's very important for us to be cognizant of that.

Rachel Mandell (05:21)

Thank you. I really appreciate this context because it's like opening the curtain and kind of getting a sense of what's going on. And it's a lot, what's going on on the other side.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (05:29)

It's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, with the sheer volume and especially the sheer volume because of AI technologies. On the job seeker side, there are so many job seekers who believe that you're trying to get a resume to beat the ATS, which there's no such thing. Just do a good resume. The simpler, the better in terms of formatting. Some people are using platforms that do mass apply.

which doesn't help at all actually. Sometimes it might hurt your candidacy because when a system feels like there's an influx of applications, they're gonna be on higher alert of fraud, which does happen because there's a lot of fraudulent candidates out there as well. So to me, like we have to just rein in technology on both sides and be very cognizant and be aware of how we can be more human centered.

and show up originally and organically as ourselves rather than just trying to use tools to flood the market on both ends.

Rachel Mandell (06:25)

There are some other things like language that are specific to that other side of the curtain that I'd be curious to learn more about. So could you share some common hiring terms or practices that job seekers may not be familiar with, but that the acquisition folks use?

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (06:42)

I don't know if it's more like language, but I think it's more about how do you best prepare yourself to represent yourself in an interview? I think that it's a muscle and everybody can afford to practice it no matter how long you've been in the job market. Especially if you've been at one company for a very long period of time. I think it's really important to do something like the STAR method, which is

situation, task, action, and results. So if they ask you a question about, me about a time when you made an impact on the company's marketing campaign, right? People tend to tell a long story and then they ramble. And we have to really rein that in because what recruiters are, are human beings and they're not gonna be able to connect the dots across the board of what you meant versus what you said.

We live in our own lived unique worlds, right? So we know exactly how we impacted it, but you've got to be really good at telling that story, which is why in my business, I started something called the Origin Arc, and it's really about getting people to be better at storytelling across the board, because you have to be able to tell the story to the audience who's receiving it. And I also think that's the same even for like recruiters when they're talking to...

candidates, also need to be able to tell something about the company they need to do. You know, they've got a lot of different things. So it's not necessarily about like lingo, but it's more about how do you show up so that when I walk away, whether I'm a job seeker or I'm the recruiter, I can literally say, okay, I got a 360 view of this person, I'm able to kind of clearly assess or this company, right, clearly assess what's happening, what's going on. And then I can make my decision about whether or not I

think this is a good match, right? I don't think we do a great job of that. think, you know, because it's a very desperate market, people are just showing up and just, you know, nerve it. Like you can also, you know, we have to make room for neurodiversity as well. Like one of the things I love to tell recruiting teams is it's okay to send out the questions ahead of time. It's not a test, right? Like, you don't have to like, not your SATs, like help people be prepared to answer the question the best way possible.

without trying to do gotcha moments. So like how can we make space for being able to have a conversation instead of an interrogation when we interview?

Rachel Mandell (09:06)

I have never heard of that before, sending questions in advance, but I sure wish I would get that in advance.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (09:09)

It's so easy to do. It's not a hard thing. And honestly, if job seekers want to start requesting it, think the better, the more respectful your advocacy is, I think the more we can push some of the recruiting teams who are not further along and trying to be more cognizant of other people's circumstances, the better. You can just ask, do you send?

questions in advance, I'd love to be able to prepare the best way possible, you know, without like being like, trashing them because they didn't or feeling like you didn't have a great interview and beating yourself up. Just trying to do what you can to do the best that you can in that moment.

Rachel Mandell (09:47)

Yeah, I think it's good advice because they are nerve wracking and you can be an incredible performer and not a great interviewer. ⁓

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (09:51)

100%.

Rachel Mandell (09:57)

So in addition to practicing your storytelling, getting comfortable, sort of sharing your accomplishments, are there any specific signals that might throw a hiring manager off or that might help candidates prepare in addition to what we talked about?

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (10:05)

Mm-hmm.

So there's a group of them that are very good hiring managers and they absolutely are well equipped in making space for you as a candidate. There are a lot of hiring managers who are not good and that falls on the, I think it falls in the recruiting teams to be able to train their interviewers as best as possible so that when they show up,

for these candidates, their reputation as well as the company's reputation is a positive one. They don't kind of think about that. They're just like, gotta hire this role. So they can be very sort of narrow focused. And so with that said, what you have to be as a job seeker, I think it's really important to be as agile as possible. Read the room if you can, when you start introducing yourself.

You can make sure that you're trying to tell your story as best as possible. Ask questions as well. I love for job seekers to ask hiring managers, like, is your leadership style? How best do you like to communicate? Like the kind of things that will help you understand what is it like working for this person? How are your department's goals connected to the business goals? So whatever you can do to kind of help you understand, like, what's my piece in this if I get this job?

and then I'm set up for success. But again, hiring managers are across the board. Like they literally are as an individual, as a person. So it's very just challenging to say like, this is what you can do. Just try to be very calm, collected and state your case, state your skillset, ask questions, and then feel like you've done your absolute best and prepare for that. But...

Yeah, we try to bring them along as much as possible. We really do because they have whole other jobs, right? Like they don't recruit for a living. They literally are doing the job that they're trying to get you to do as well. In addition to building their team. And it's also a professional development exercise for them, right? Like the better you are, I think as a hiring manager, you know, it definitely adds to your leadership skillset. So I always tell people, I don't think talent acquisition and HR is that different from each other because we are learning.

about people on both sides. And that's why we work together really closely in partnership because it's really, I think I just did a LinkedIn post about this, but your hiring practice is definitely going to show the people who are stakeholders, how they show up and what their leadership is like and all of these different things and communication styles and all of these things that go into performance reviews later.

Rachel Mandell (12:45)

It's such a good point because you do speak to different people throughout the process. you go through it, you you may maybe start with someone who only focuses in HR and then you're passed along with a hiring manager. And one of the things I learned as, know, my first being a first time hiring manager is like, there's stress and expectations on both sides. It's not just the person being interviewed. There's a lot of pressure to find

a good fit across all the dimensions. So I think that just being aware of that kind of brings the stress down because there is more of an equilibrium than you would think.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (13:12)

Yeah, yes. People just keep remembering interviews or conversations, right? We just have to really kind of not make them so heightened in our own regulatory system. It's a conversation.

Rachel Mandell (13:35)

All right. I want to get into your DE and I work because I know you've done a lot of it and it obviously directly applies to folks who are looking for work. I'm curious, can you tell us in your point of view what equitable hiring looks like and any signs people can sort of identify for? All right, this company is trying.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (13:45)

Yeah, my favorite. Yeah, so one of the things I just, for me, equitable hiring means that we are giving the same access to everyone who applies to jobs across the board. This means like, if your boss's, golf buddy's nephew applies, then you also then get the same access that that.

person is doing. So there isn't like this sort of tiered hierarchy. It means that we are thinking about people's different 40 plus social identities that we have in DE &I. It's not just race and gender or your sexuality, but it's also about your caregiver status, your veteran status, your neurodiversity, socioeconomic.

And so for me, you know, building out these equitable hiring programs, I was fortunate enough to oversee DE &I and talent and the thinking there is essentially I'm responsible for your equitable experience from the time you apply to the time you leave the job. And that means, you know, creating access. That means looking at job descriptions and making sure that the language is not overly, you know,

overly gendered, right? Sometimes I see these job descriptions and I'm like, I don't actually want a rock star working for my company. mean, rock stars have horrible like, like reputations, like, you know, they're like trashing hotel rooms and like, don't care about authority. Like I actually just want somebody who's going to do the job really well. We have to think about that kind of language, right? Like, and are we describing the job in a way that allows somebody to be able to see themselves no matter who they are?

in that job? Are we telling people, for example, like what the stages are in the hiring process in the job description, which is something that I was really advocate I did early on, which is like, you're going to talk to a recruiter, you'll you'll talk to a hiring manager, if you advance from that point, you'll probably then do a panel of interviews for key stakeholders, there may be a coding exercise, all of this can take anywhere from one month to two months, depending on everyone's schedule, like

How can we be more very transparent about the process as well? Equitable hiring also just looks like the language of the company's culture is embedded in there. If you're saying things like, you don't have all of the requirements in this job description, but please still apply because we are really interested in seeing potential. We might make room for that as well. Are they practicing what they preach instead of just sort of...

showing different faces on their job career board, right? Look at their PTO and their time off and their family leave and look at all of those kind of different perks and make sure that those are things that are equitable for you as well, especially as if you are a caregiver or if you need accommodations as well, are they asking you about accommodations for your interview? So if you're selected, are they saying like, do you need any assistance? Because they can provide that as well. And then as a practitioner,

That means I'm looking at data all the time. Who's getting through our interview funnel from a demographic perspective? This is why I always encourage people to fill out the voluntary demographic survey because one of the misconceptions is that it's attached to your application. I don't ever see that. I can't legally see any of that at all. What it really is is allowing us to make sure that we are collecting demographic information on who's applying.

but we can't see it attached to anyone's application. So it really anonymizes who's applying to the roles and allows us to be a lot more strategic. So that means, you know, if I'm getting a ton of interviews from one specific demographic, that means I have to spend my recruiting money to go and find other demographics so I can diversify my candidate pool, right? I'm using this to be very strategic. I'm also using this to tell, you know, I was a big fan of telling the whole company like.

Here's what our DEI demographics look like from a candidate perspective for this last quarter. This is who is applying. This is who got through each of our interview stages. It also allows you to partner with HR business partners and say like, hey, this hiring manager wasn't so great at interviewing people from this specific kind of background. They didn't get past. like, should we talk about this a bit more? Is there kind of any biases or microaggression training that we should be looking at?

Whether it's unconscious or not, we're just trying to solve the problem of allowing people equitable access. And then when they get into the, you know, the organization, then you're kind of doing the same thing with engagement surveys, with pulse surveys, with performance management. You're always using data to tell the story so that then you can be very strategic from a hiring perspective. It starts immediately when that person hires. The job description is a posting. It's an announcement is your

advertisement. It is not just something that you should recycle every four years without taking a look at it. we hired a product manager back in 2019. We can use that job description. It's outdated. It's outrun. You have to treat it as like something that's out there representing you as a company. And so therefore you should treat it that way. That way people understand who they're applying, you know, what they're applying to, what are they're getting into. And they have enough information to say like, yes, I'm going to apply to this job. makes sense to me.

Rachel Mandell (19:10)

I appreciate that so much. made me think about my last company was a pretty good, it was very tech heavy in terms of recruitment. would say, know, 80 % of our staff was tech and you know, that's huge male in a lot of top descriptions typically. And they were really proactive in communicating their efforts around finding job boards that were for women in tech. And I always appreciated not just their efforts, the...

their communication about it. So everyone was aware going into interview conversations that we were really as a company living our values by putting in the extra effort to not just get in front of women, but diverse applicants, for certain engineering roles and things like that were difficult.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (19:40)

Yeah. I tell companies, sometimes you also have to grow the talent you're looking for, especially if it's, you know, you want some diversity there. Don't be afraid to just have a dual purpose in your recruiting efforts by...

you know, making sure you have a really solid internship or some kind of apprenticeship program in addition to looking for the roles that you need. Because at some point you're going to be able to say like, were able, we can tap into this pool that we've had this relationship with for so long. And then that way a lot of groups don't feel like you're coming to them to be performative, right? you're only coming to me because you you want more women and you don't have any female engineers. Well, if you're doing things as these, this is what I encourage all hiring managers to do.

If you know that you're going be hiring for certain roles, you have to get out there and build your brand as a hiring manager. You have to be out there speaking on panels about what it's like to work with you, what's important to you as a leader, volunteering to do resume reviews, which I'm about to do later on tonight. We have to be able to build trust within these job-seeking communities. And it's very difficult to say that right now because now companies are like, it's a company market. It's not a candidate's market.

I always think that you should be doing this anyway and you never know if the pendulum is going to swing back. something you should always remember is your job seeking community are also your consumers and your customers. So however you treat them as job seekers, they're going to remember that when it comes time to actually spend money on your product or your service or whatever they have to do. They don't separate it. so companies shouldn't be separating it either.

Rachel Mandell (21:31)

Yeah, I love that point. It's an important one to make that's not made enough, which is like, it is a very real extension of the company into the world. And they are actually touching new audiences that matter.

I have a question around our, our audience, which is a little more specifically like mid-career women. And if you have any advice or tips or just any experiences that come to mind, that might be valuable for them as they make career moves with, you know, 15, 20 years of experience under their belt, but then, know, everything else that comes along with being who we are.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (21:52)

The unfortunate part is ageism is really very real and it's really prevalent right now. I hate to say that. I don't know why that is. I don't know what happened. I think there's a certain group of recruiters who are very challenged in understanding the value of someone who has had a good...

number of years doing the job as opposed to someone who comes from like a big tech company that they're familiar with and they assume that that means that the person is going to do the job better. Or there's an inability to say if you've been say a VP that you can do a senior manager job. Right now in this market, there's a bunch of people who are senior managers who are out of work in addition to VPs who are out of work. And so a lot of times if you're

a former executive and you're trying to pivot, you don't understand why you're not getting these senior manager jobs. And it's literally leveling, right? There's a very real obstacle about salary bands right now. I do believe that the salaries are going lower for some roles as well in terms of because it's the market right now. So you're not maybe going to get the same salary that you would at the job that you just

what either you just left or they left you. There has to be this conversation about what makes me happy? What environment would really just sort of make me feel like I'm contributing to what is gonna be probably my next career? I do think that there is something to not having all of your experience if it's 15, 20 years on your resume. I hate to say that.

In normal circumstances, I would be like, no, because I'm the kind of recruiter that doesn't care, but I'm me and I'm not the only recruiter that's out there. And so just to make it very clear, I would condense your resume and make it so that it's probably the most recent, probably maybe the last 10, maybe 15 years maximum. I also would be very specific in learning how to

make your resume not be the things that you actually were required to do, but how you actually made impact in that company. I see a lot of resumes that are literally just the job description. I was responsible for this. We don't need words like responsible for. The company is looking for somebody who is going to make impact. I built this. I changed this. I impacted this. You have to take apart your resume.

and put it in a way that's selling you as opposed to listing your accomplishments in a way that's just like your job description. No one wants to see that. We've already seen the job description. So in a way to make yourself distinctive, and that's different. That's a different market from when some of us were in the job market maybe 10 years ago, right? We just wanted to see, you do the job? Now we wanna see how you're gonna do the job better than anybody else. So it's a language reframe in terms of your resume.

I think it's really important to make sure that you have, you list all the things that you did. I feel I do this exercise with some people when I look at their resumes and I'm just like, well, did you do this? And they just leave stuff off. Like they're just like, cause we women, we volunteer, we do a lot of stuff at work and we don't even think about like, wait, I did, you know, lead that project. I did wait, I did do that. Like you don't think about it. Take some time and list it all.

You know, there are not a ton of resume helpers out there that I love, but there's a couple like Adam Karfiak, who does an amazing job of helping people review their resume in a way that allows them to sell themselves. And he's not like predatory. I don't love predatory coaches. I don't love when people are out there telling people, this template's going to be great for you, or coaches who've never actually hired before.

So they're just selling something. I think you really just need to take a look at your resume and make sure that if you are not in the room, it is telling the story of how you may change at your last previous jobs. That is like, and use as many data pieces as you possibly can. Don't make it too wordy. Make it very simple. Don't overthink it. Don't take it apart a million times unless you're doing that just to get the best draft of it as possible.

Rachel Mandell (26:22)

That's amazing advice. I'm going to list that out and share it for sure. mean, just thinking, you know, just your acknowledgement that it, the requirements for a resume have changed, you know, for women who have, you know, have been in the same place, maybe five plus years. And it's like, it's a new world and it's not just the responsibilities. Like you're saying it's what you did. And I mean, that in and of itself is fantastic advice for, for those of us who haven't been in the market in a while.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (26:24)

Yeah, I would also say really lean into technology. You know, there's a lot of chatter about AI taking jobs. don't think that that's an excuse for lot of leaders to use AI taking jobs. They actually haven't yet

But you do need to know technology right now. You do, if you, know there are people out there who are like, I hate it, it's the worst, climate change, I get, I understand it. But every single job is going to be impacted by emerging technologies, no matter what that job is. So if you are out of work and you're looking for work right now, you do actually need to skill yourself, upskill yourself in a way that allows you to at least have a functioning working knowledge.

of how to use AI automation, those kinds of things. They're impacting every single part of the company, no matter what it is. And so just to take a blind eye to it is not doing you any favors. Everybody wants to know how you're going to use it. Whether you're just like learning how to build out something in Claude or not, but list that too in your resume. Like if you're doing these kinds of courses, know, Coursera, whatever you're using, make sure you're listing.

what certificates you've done or anything like that. It's a good way to spend time in between jobs is learning something new so that when you get into that job, you won't be left behind. Because there aren't a lot of companies who are teaching people how to use the thing that they're using right now. It's not that they don't want to. I just don't think it's top priority. They don't have time. They're expecting you to do it to upskill yourself. So it's really important that you do that right now when you have the opportunity.

relatively inexpensive. think Claude has a free series of workshops on how to use it. It's really important to do that.

Rachel Mandell (28:32)

I agree. And I think this is important reframe for people who are specifically out of work or have some, have a little bit of free time because it's like, you actually have time to upskill and upskill doesn't, you know, upskill is like old language for new technology. This is like a hundred X upskill. If like, if you can figure it out and, and, and it really isn't, it really isn't so hard. I, I myself have been doing it and

In addition to giving me comfort with the new tools, it also gives me confidence. Cause I'm like, if I have this thing, I can do any job. So even in that regard, know, it makes me go into conversations about other work saying like, yeah, know, like whereas before I'd be like, don't know if I didn't exactly do that exact thing before. I can't tell you I can do it. And seeing what's possible now, I'm like, oh, I can figure anything out.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (29:32)

100%, it gives you that confidence and also demystifies what it means to be technically savvy right now, especially since it's so simple and accessible. mean, listen, especially when AI tools and, know, use them to your own personal boundary. I know people have our like climate change and taking over in Hollywood, I'm near you, but also you still need to be.

familiar with the thing that we're talking about, especially if you're looking for a job. So use it to your own discretion. But it's in very simple language. I remember, you know, when Java CSS came out, there would be no way that you could just be like, let me just teach myself Java. Right now you can actually kind of do that because there is a whole system that's allowing people to take pieces of processes down to the level where your own

sort of learning capabilities are matched and you can figure something out. Like I've built things that I'm like, I don't even know. I couldn't have done that 10 years ago. There's absolutely no way, but I've broken it down in pieces to the way I'm like, okay. Got it. Cool. I mean, it's just a glorified kind of platform of YouTube videos, right? But it's real time and it's interacting with you. And again, use it to your own personal.

your own personal boundary and your own personal taste or level, but you can't ignore it. It's just not gonna go away at all.

Rachel Mandell (30:57)

Yeah, I tend to agree. And I like to focus on the opportunities that lie in there, particularly for women and displaced folks in the market right now.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (30:59)

It's 100%. I think Charter, I think they do a study and they, you when I was working with them about two years ago, they said that black and brown people, women over 50, those were the groups that were getting left behind when we talk about emerging technologies because of access, right? But now we have the access. So I really just feel like we are the ones who have to be more proactive and

taking control ourselves rather than waiting for people to bring us along. Because that is very old school, right? Like if you needed to learn something at work, they would teach you. But like, you know, that time has passed now. Learning and development is something entirely different. It's not like, you know, teaching you a new skill so that you can stay in the company. I don't think that that's a higher priority as it used to be.

Rachel Mandell (31:58)

I completely agree. I, through FemmeFactor have seen women go off and start AI training companies. And I've had to have conversations with them about the people who are coming to learn. And a lot of it is women or parents who have ideas, but could never get past, like you were saying, sort of these institutional thresholds of whether it was a technology background or investment capital. now...

The MVP is at your fingertips, whereas before it was years away and hundreds of thousands of dollars. that's just one story that perks my ears up and is like, this is maybe what some access looks like, can look like and can turn into.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (32:25)

Yes. Mm-hmm. Yep. Exactly.

Yep, yep, just play with it. Dip your toe in it. Join communities that are in your industry that are talking about emerging technologies. Follow people. Just be a bit more proactive in reaching out to understand these things because they will give you leverage in the market.

Rachel Mandell (32:56)

Excellent advice. All of this conversation. cannot wait to share it. So many people are going to get so much value out of this. I really appreciate you sharing your experience and your expertise. Where can people find more of you?

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (33:08)

But yeah, can find me, T. Tara Turk, Hanes on LinkedIn. I'm a little bit more spicy on threads @TTaraHaynes I have a YouTube channel and my website has all of the links to all of these. It's equityactivations.com where you can see all the fractional services and workshops that I do for others.

Rachel Mandell (33:28)

Excellent. Thank you again. We really appreciate it.

T. Tara Turk-Haynes (she/her) (33:32)

Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. Thank you.