Cathe Hargenrader, a former CIA officer, shares her decades long journey through the agency discussing the cultural shifts that evolved over time. She emphasizes the importance of networking, flexibility in the workplace, and the value of self-promotion for women. Cathe also provides insights into her coaching methods and offers advice for those transitioning from public to private sectors.

Transcript

Rachel Mandell (00:00)

We are honored and privileged to talk to Cathe Hargenrader, who worked at the Central Intelligence Agency for 35 years and has 25 years of professional development experience in the broader intelligence community. Most of her career was dedicated to initiatives for leadership growth. She served as a member of the CIA's Corporate Executive Leadership Coaching Program and completed coaching engagements with clients who ranged from emerging leaders to senior intelligence service officers. Cathe is privileged to currently serve as a coach with the Army Leadership Program and is an active member of the coaching cadre for the Impact Center's Women's Executive Leadership Program. Welcome, Cathe. We're so excited to have you.

Cathe Hargenrader (00:45)

Thank you so much. I love being here. Your organization is inspiring and I'm very excited to be contributing in some way to the hard work that the two Rachels are doing for your organization. So thank you for having me.

Rachel Mandell (00:59)

Of course, we're very grateful. So there's so much we could talk about. Let's start at the beginning. What was it like to work at the agency early in your career?

Cathe Hargenrader (01:11)

Before I retired, I really took some time to reflect on that. And I recommend that for anyone who's moving through a transition — to reflect. I walked the halls and went past the gallery of all the directors. There were a total of 25 when I left, and I realized I had worked under half of them. I had never thought about that. I was there a long time.

That's to say the culture really shifted from the time that I came in to when I left. Women did not have much of a role when I first came on board and we kind of had to make a place for ourselves and stand up for ourselves. There were some men who did stand up, but it was a tough culture at times. By the time I left, we had a woman director heading the agency. About three of the six directorates had women directors. It really did evolve, and I felt very much a part of that.

It's a very insular community. A lot of people marry people who work there, including me — I met my husband there. It feels like family. You don't always realize that until you've left or you're away for a bit, but we really did look out for each other. I will say that it was apolitical. The mission of the organization was to be apolitical, to provide the facts to policymakers, taking everyone into account. Downtime was not spent talking about politics at all — it was really about each other and what was going on. I really appreciated that. It helped me continue to be devoted to the mission.

I had intended to work for the agency for two years and I was there 35. That tells you something. In 35 years, I had eight assignments with discrete, very different duties. It was a great place to move around and try out your strengths and see what really clicked. I landed in my passion, which I never could have predicted from the time I started — this very young woman from Pittsburgh just out of college, not knowing what the heck I was doing in DC. I have a daughter who's in the federal government now. She said she never would be, but she now says, I know what you were talking about, mom. I get it.

Rachel Mandell (04:05)

You mentioned that you were a part of the cultural change and evolution and I'd like to hear more about that. I know you had your first baby there and you started talking to other women who were in a similar position. Can you tell us what that was like and how you banded together and created something that was supportive?

Cathe Hargenrader (04:25)

Out of adversity comes opportunity. I had my first child and decided I was going to become part-time. I worked part-time 28 of my 35 years — three days a week. We were assessed on performance according to potential, one to three, one being the top.

When my performance panel was reviewing my performance, the lead of the panel knocked me down to the lowest potential level because he said I was part-time and not invested in my work. That was actually very devastating. My boss at the time said to me, I'm supporting you because you're doing the right thing — you're staying at home at least half time with your family. He said, take as much time as you need off of work. This is devastating. I understand.

So I took a little bit of time off and I came back and I decided this shouldn't happen. I had a lot of support from mentors who were older women. I decided to form a network for women — or men, we had men too later on — who were part-time. We would get together and not complain, but try to think of ways forward. I learned from a lot of people in that network. There were some older women who would say the most important time was to be home with your teenagers. It's wonderful to be home with your babies, but your teenager is only going to talk to you once in a while. So if you have some time to be home when they come home from school, that's important.

We formed this network and a senior director created a policy, working with HR, that performance should not be based on tour of duty — meaning how many days you work. That changed the policy, and that was really cool. The head of HR was our sponsor for this network. Eventually, this network was part of other women's groups at the organization and we were able to pilot flex time — working nine days and getting every other Friday off, working longer hours, things that the incoming workforce really wanted for flexibility in their lives.

One of the people who pushed back was an older man. He said, I don't understand why people need a Friday off just to go ride their bikes. But eventually those men who were against it realized they were having elder care issues and their wives were saying, hey, it's over to you. I think some of those people started to realize why flexible time would be helpful. I don't take full credit — other people helped. And that network is still alive and working today.

Rachel Mandell (07:37)

That's incredible. You mentioned earlier that you had eight different distinct roles while you were there, and eventually you landed in a place that you were really passionate about. Can you talk about that?

Cathe Hargenrader (07:50)

My first job there was to catalog documents. Boring job, putting little number codes on them. It was all about production. My boss put me in a corner at one point and said I wasn't producing fast enough. Her boss, who was a male, came to me and said, why are you sitting in this corner? And I said, well, I've been told that my production is not up to par. And he marched me out to my immediate boss and said, this is wrong. She's new, she's working hard, you do not get to put her in the corner. Nobody puts baby in a corner.

I worked my way up from those kinds of jobs. I ended up leading a small team of people who index documents — that was my first leadership experience. I was an executive assistant to some pretty senior leaders over time. I spent half of my career in the analysis part of the CIA where they analyze the information that comes in and pass it to the policymakers. The second half of my career, as a history major, I supported the technology directorate with professional development, career training, and project management training.

Eventually I was asked to be a coach. Being a coach was the last thing I thought I wanted to do. The director of one of those six organizations asked me to consider getting coach certification because the organization was paying outside coaches a thousand dollars an hour. They decided that if they had inside coaches, it would be other duties as assigned — no extra pay, but serving the organization. They sponsored me for my certification. I ended up doing that for about five years with the organization and continued after I left.

Rachel Mandell (09:53)

Can you tell us what it was like or what were some of the trends or themes when you were coaching senior leaders at the agency?

Cathe Hargenrader (10:04)

They ranged. I would say the biggest theme I discovered as a coach — and we really just listen and create a safe space for people to dig deep and discover within themselves — is that most leaders don't know how they're showing up. That was my experience and it continues to be with the work I'm doing now.

We would work really hard on questions like: What do you think your strengths are? How do you think you're showing up? What are you hearing back from the people who work for you? Do you ever ask them for input on how things are going?

I'll give a couple of examples. We did 360-degree assessments of leaders and as coaches we would walk them through the feedback, because it could be hard at times. I had one woman who was convinced that no one liked her. She came into the session just bawling, saying, they actually like me. I had no idea. Those kinds of things were really cool.

People got to pick what they wanted to work on, but if the people above them, beside them, and below them were all saying they needed improvement in a certain area, we would collaborate and partner on what they could do to increase engagement. Work-life balance was always a theme. Trying to deal with the bureaucracy and the culture was a theme.

I often call myself a values alignment coach. We would talk about people's core values and they would realize they weren't aligned with the work they were doing. As a professional development officer, we would think about what it would mean to change and where they could apply those values and strengths in another place where they'd be much happier at work.

Rachel Mandell (12:04)

It's really interesting. It sounds like leadership across sectors and agencies — the same themes kind of bubble up to the surface.

Cathe Hargenrader (12:14)

They do. You would think there are definitely unique things about our organization, but the things specific to the work they were doing, we didn't necessarily talk about. Sometimes they couldn't tell me. But their colleagues — it was such a close network — they had people to talk about those things with.

Rachel Mandell (12:33)

Can you share an example of an experience or event that changed how you led?

Cathe Hargenrader (12:38)

It was my first leadership position, where people were indexing documents. I was brand new and not at all refined as a leader. I followed my values — connection is my core value. I had a young man who came in for training, super smart, but his co-trainer discovered that he was stashing documents in his drawer and saying he finished them. We were rated on how many documents you complete.

That was a tough call. I knew it was going to be a difficult and crucial conversation. I had taken some leadership training that really made a difference for me. I tried it — I said to the employee, let's go somewhere private and talk. I asked him what was going on and explained why it was important to the organization that these things be processed.

We talked and I think he was very nervous and felt like he was not up for the job. He was new to the workforce. He talked about his family and how they were raising young kids and that was pressing on him. We co-partnered and collaborated on a process. We decided to take the stuff in the drawer he hadn't looked at and divide it among the team — they never knew where the stuff was coming from, I just distributed it. He could start over, and he and I would meet once a week to talk about his progress.

That one little thing — listening to him, helping him get out of the hole he'd dug himself into — worked amazingly and he became one of our highest producers. I think every leader would tell you that if you can meet your people where they are, recognize potential, and also call them when they're not being accountable, it's really valuable.

Rachel Mandell (15:05)

If you were speaking to women today who are in a workplace culture they were trying to change or make more flexible for themselves or others, what advice would you give them?

Cathe Hargenrader (15:16)

Let your work show. Let it shine. Make yourself really valuable — and you probably already are, but women tend not to showcase themselves or to somehow emphasize that or ensure it's in a performance report.

I think my career opportunities came from working for men and women who recognized that I worked really hard. And so they were willing to invest. My work ethic was such that — and most people's is — parents want to get home to be with their families. You just get stuff done. Making those connections with managers matters.

It happened to me multiple times where people would come to me while I was in a job and say, can I convince you to work for me? Even though they knew I worked three days a week. One manager got down on his knees and asked me to work for him. I really think it's showing your stuff and having the courage to ask.

I tell my daughter in the federal government — she wanted to have every other Friday off — and I said, ask. It's something you want. Something you need. And they were like, yeah, sure. Talk to your team. They're okay with it. Go for it. Don't be afraid to ask as long as you have the evidence that you'll work hard and do what you need to do.

I worked for one manager for 10 years, three separate times. She used to say, you get more done in three days than the people who are here for five. It's compressed time. You're working really hard and you don't waste time. I know I'm going to have Monday and Friday off, so I'm going to work really hard. And I believe in what I'm doing.

Rachel Mandell (17:19)

I think that's a really useful formula — promote the work that you contribute and don't be afraid to ask.

Cathe Hargenrader (17:47)

Or you try somewhere else. I really believe in that. And I apologize to my girls — our generation did this to you, but be more fierce than I ever was and just ask.

Rachel Mandell (18:01)

We have one more question about what you're up to now. I know in retirement from the agency, you are still helping a lot of people. Can you talk to us about what you're up to?

Cathe Hargenrader (18:15)

I have been working with people who had to leave the organization because they had diversity, equity, and inclusion in their job titles. They were not permanent job titles. Their work was, for instance, in software, but they took this assignment to give back to the organization. Unfortunately, they were locked out.

I did coach in the beginning, but I think it was more just being there for them. It was devastating. Young people, mostly women, who had 10 years in but whose families depended on their income. Others who were close to retirement age but weren't going to make it because they got locked out. I really just sat and listened and let a lot of people emote.

In our organization it felt like the skills were so unique that they couldn't be applied anywhere else. I would work with them to talk about their strengths and how they could possibly apply elsewhere. The biggest question I learned to ask — and I ask many of my clients — is: What are you the go-to person for? What did people come to you for? That opens up a whole range of discovery. They get talking about it and get motivated and more confident. Very often they come in saying, I don't have anything that's going to work on the outside. I don't have strengths that can apply. But I really believe that question helps people find hope that if this doesn't work out here, they can go somewhere else and let people know about those strengths.

Rachel Mandell (20:12)

I think that's a phenomenal starting point. It takes you out of your work identity, which so many of us fold into our personal identity. Once people can pull themselves out and identify their strengths in a vacuum — are there any tactical pieces of advice you could give to folks who are moving from the public to the private sector in terms of equivalency in titles or things like that?

Cathe Hargenrader (20:48)

That's a really good question. I believe public service opens doors — there are companies that really value that, whether you want to go private or even nonprofit.

I also coach for the Army and for the Women's Executive Leadership Program. A lot of people have just put together a resume that's the "what I do every day." We really go through that — after doing the strengths work — to create a resume that highlights those strengths with examples. "I managed 50 people" can be a big deal. In the Army, "I helped PACCOM with the operations" — things that really resonate. Then you highlight that you had to be a leader, you had to pivot, you had to take initiative.

One of my favorite leaders — the one who asked me to be a coach — used to say to all of her thousands of people: assume 50 percent more authority than you think you have. If you think about that question — what have you done to lead something when maybe you really weren't in a position to lead? Most people do that. They just don't realize that's what they did. What are your accomplishments? What were your impacts? That helps. And then putting those on a resume and giving further examples in an interview really helps.

Rachel Mandell (22:20)

We're based in DC, so there's a lot of people going through this transition. Thank you for sharing that advice. I know you've been helping a lot of people through it.

Cathe Hargenrader (22:31)

This has been so fantastic. Cathe, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.

Cathe Hargenrader (22:37)

If anybody wants to reach out — whether about coaching or if they would like some thinking out loud together for deep discovery — they can reach me at my email, which is cathe@x8solutions.com. I coach all over the world with the Army, for instance, so I am available.

Rachel Mandell (23:04)

Thank you again and we hope to talk to you soon.

Cathe Hargenrader (23:07)

I've been humbled. Thank you so much.